In the film Fog of War, McNamara talks about the Vietnam War and some of the decisions that he had to make during that time period. In the film, he talks about working during World War II, for the Ford Motor Company and during the Cuban Missile Crisis. During World War II, he talks about use of the Atomic Bomb, and how they could have been in deep trouble had they lost the war. Also, this leads to rule number 5 because sometimes there is no need to go overboard when it comes to sending a message. Often times in war many people are unnecessarily killed when less can be killed in order to send the same message. Also, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, he explains how no one was thinking clearly, which led to a very close brink of nuclear war. Most of all, it seems as though McNamara is trying to get people to understand his thought process before the Vietnam War and why it turned out the way it did. Many of his experiences before the Vietnam War led to some rash decisions like Tokyo.
The point at which the movie’s point of view changes is the 6th lesson. The first six lessons are more about war and the way in which to go about it. It seems to talk about fighting for your country and remembering that this war is bigger than just yourself. You want to work as one large team in order to be the best you can be as a military unit. Then after the 6th lesson, it goes to a more personal level. Some of them, like 7, 8, and 10 have to do with the mental aspect of war. Many times, war will mess with your mind, but these lessons must be learned in order to be successful. So, the lessons seem to rank from a larger level to a lower level. Whether these are ranked in importance is unclear, but it seems this way.
Wednesday, April 21, 2010
BLOG 12
The film Fog of War by Morris is a documentary about the Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. McNamara was involved in many American events in his life time and he speaks about his participation concerning World War II. He was the executive of Ford Motor Company. He narrates the story of the Vietnam War and talks about his eleven lessons that can relate to everyday life.
1. Empathize with your enemy
2. Rationality will not save us
3. There's something beyond one's self
4. Maximize efficiency
5. Proportionality should be a guideline in the war
6. Get the data
7. Belief and seeing are both often wrong
8. Be prepared to re examine your reasoning
9. In order to good, you may need to engage in evil
10. Never say never
11. You cant change human nature
McNamara uses these lessons to justify and back up things that he does and says. He starts to talk about alot of the war in the beginning and lessons 1,4,5, and 6 have to do with the Vietnam War. He regrets the war but he also shows how he is morally affected by it. He shows his perspectives and shows the side of the government compared to the in country perspective. McNamara is very honest in the film. He shows death totals and graphic images. He talks about how soldiers should be honest with themselves and he admits on the mistakes that he made within the war. He admits that America didnt know how to handle this war and his job was to advice the president of foreign affairs but considers he didnt do a great job at that. His 11 ideas did not only relate to this war but all wars and how they could be affected.
1. Empathize with your enemy
2. Rationality will not save us
3. There's something beyond one's self
4. Maximize efficiency
5. Proportionality should be a guideline in the war
6. Get the data
7. Belief and seeing are both often wrong
8. Be prepared to re examine your reasoning
9. In order to good, you may need to engage in evil
10. Never say never
11. You cant change human nature
McNamara uses these lessons to justify and back up things that he does and says. He starts to talk about alot of the war in the beginning and lessons 1,4,5, and 6 have to do with the Vietnam War. He regrets the war but he also shows how he is morally affected by it. He shows his perspectives and shows the side of the government compared to the in country perspective. McNamara is very honest in the film. He shows death totals and graphic images. He talks about how soldiers should be honest with themselves and he admits on the mistakes that he made within the war. He admits that America didnt know how to handle this war and his job was to advice the president of foreign affairs but considers he didnt do a great job at that. His 11 ideas did not only relate to this war but all wars and how they could be affected.
Blog 12 FY
The Fog of War is a documentary style film that chronicles the life and beliefs of former secretary of defense Robert McNamara. The movie uses old footage and recent interviews to depict the thought process of McNamara, particularly during the Vietnam war. I think in making this movie McNamara hoped to share his thought process with the American public. Its clear from the movie that he has a very polarized public opinion. There were scenes where he was called brilliant and there were some people who believed "he was a son of a bitch". I think he believed that many people judged him before understanding all the facts, and his goal in making this movie was probably to better inform the public about himself and the presidents he served under. In an ironic way, I think he wanted his opponents to follow his first rule of war which was "Empathise with your enemy".
Through the medium of film McNamara tried to project just how difficult his terms in office were. In the movie he said that although its easy to point out the mistakes the administration made in hindsight it was much more difficult back then. He made his decisions with the information he had available, and he says some times the Johnson administration did the wrong thing. McNamara is portrayed as a very intelligent guy in the film, he was top of his class and graduated from Harvard; however the war in Vietnam still failed despite the judgment of many geniuses.
I also think the movie tried to portray the stark contrast between data and real life. There were countless images in the film of collections of data and charts. I think this was purposely added to show that to the people making decisions war is all about numbers. They may be able to calculate the chance of success, but they can never feel what its like to actually be out there fighting. I think that is why presidential advisers were so optimistic going into Vietnam. The movie shows that the Americans believed that once our marines were sent in Vietnam would be in for hell. On paper it might seem like the US had a undebateble advantage, but things like dedication are impossible to measure. As the former Vietnamese minister once said to McNamara they were "prepared to fight to the last soldier". In the movie McNamara tried to show that their decisions were based around this data that the administration trusted.
I think that the ideas most shifted around lesson #6. This is when he started talking about getting the proper data, and I thought this was most applicable to his own life. Using the lesson I think he showed once again that getting accurate is very difficult, especially in times of war. Although he tried to gather all the necessary data much of it was subjective and thus invalid. For example when going into the war he said the US believed that the Vietnamese had attacked American naval vessels twice. However, this was later proven to be false. The guy detecting the missiles on sonar misinterpreted the information out of nervousness. Despite his error the data was still used to make the fatal decision to wage war against Vietnam. In this way I think McNamara stressed gathering accurate data from his own experiences. The next lessons are very self critical. The rest of the lessons are about true human nature and examine what constitutes an evil act. McNamara believes that to accomplish a goal for the greater good a person must sometimes follow a path of evil. I think this is how he viewed many of his decisions. Although he believed himself to be a moral person, many of his actions were evil and led to death and destruction. In one part of the film he even says that, had America lost the war to Japan, he could have easily been tried as a war criminal.
Through the medium of film McNamara tried to project just how difficult his terms in office were. In the movie he said that although its easy to point out the mistakes the administration made in hindsight it was much more difficult back then. He made his decisions with the information he had available, and he says some times the Johnson administration did the wrong thing. McNamara is portrayed as a very intelligent guy in the film, he was top of his class and graduated from Harvard; however the war in Vietnam still failed despite the judgment of many geniuses.
I also think the movie tried to portray the stark contrast between data and real life. There were countless images in the film of collections of data and charts. I think this was purposely added to show that to the people making decisions war is all about numbers. They may be able to calculate the chance of success, but they can never feel what its like to actually be out there fighting. I think that is why presidential advisers were so optimistic going into Vietnam. The movie shows that the Americans believed that once our marines were sent in Vietnam would be in for hell. On paper it might seem like the US had a undebateble advantage, but things like dedication are impossible to measure. As the former Vietnamese minister once said to McNamara they were "prepared to fight to the last soldier". In the movie McNamara tried to show that their decisions were based around this data that the administration trusted.
I think that the ideas most shifted around lesson #6. This is when he started talking about getting the proper data, and I thought this was most applicable to his own life. Using the lesson I think he showed once again that getting accurate is very difficult, especially in times of war. Although he tried to gather all the necessary data much of it was subjective and thus invalid. For example when going into the war he said the US believed that the Vietnamese had attacked American naval vessels twice. However, this was later proven to be false. The guy detecting the missiles on sonar misinterpreted the information out of nervousness. Despite his error the data was still used to make the fatal decision to wage war against Vietnam. In this way I think McNamara stressed gathering accurate data from his own experiences. The next lessons are very self critical. The rest of the lessons are about true human nature and examine what constitutes an evil act. McNamara believes that to accomplish a goal for the greater good a person must sometimes follow a path of evil. I think this is how he viewed many of his decisions. Although he believed himself to be a moral person, many of his actions were evil and led to death and destruction. In one part of the film he even says that, had America lost the war to Japan, he could have easily been tried as a war criminal.
Blog 12 ABM
The Fog of War is a movie that details the life of Secratary of Defense Robert Macnamera. It shows how critical events he lived through such as both world wars, the Cuban Missle Crisis, being president of the Ford Motor Company and Vietnam shaped his life and his policies while he was acting as the Secratary of Defense. In the movie Macnamera highlighted 11 points that he used to guide his desision making during times of crisis.
I noticed that the first five points that were more applicable to soldiers and the next six seemed to be more applicable to commanders. The first point is to empathize with your enemy. This is something that all soldiers should do. This prevents horrific acts such as the My Lai masacar. War crimes would drop dramatically and war would be more humane if soldiers treated the enemy like human beings and not just animals that can be tortured, beaten and put down. The second point is another important point for a soldier to know. They cannot always rely on rationality to save them especially in times of war. As we have learned from the books we have read everything is permitted in war and what soldiers thought was right could be wrong and vise versa. Soldiers need to approach each situation differently and think outside of the box to survive. The third point is there is something beyond ones self. This is another great point for a soldier to know. Every action that they make has consiquenses that effect many more people then just them. Every enemy they kill affects the family of the dead soldier back home. Every airstrike they call in could kill hundreds of innocents. Soldiers need to consider the consiquences of their actions at all times during battle. The fourth point is maximizing efficiency. One thing that occured during Vietnam was extreme waste. Soldiers wasted everything from ammunition to time by cutting corners and treating the war like a vacation. Soldiers need to be cool and do their jobs and missions or they will surely fail as they did in Vietnam. War is not a joke and something to be taken lightly. The final point that seems to apply to soldiers that Macnamera made while he was a soldier is keep in mind proportionality. During war soldiers should not be excessive in the damage they cause. This will often cause civilians to turn against and hate them. Also, proportionality will reduce waste and increase efficiency.
The final six points seem to be formed after he became a commander and Secratary of Defense. Point six is to get the data. This is something that command needs to do efficiently. If they do not know the enemy and its positions, strength and how it is supplied and its strategy they cannot win. It seems that in Vietnam this rule was broken because the United States greatly underestimated the enemy. The next point is belief and seeing are both wrong. This point is another point inreference to the Vietnam war and seems to try and explain what went wrong. Despite the high body counts and the fact that the United States seemed to be pushing the North Vietnamese back they still managed to lose the war. The reports were grossly over estimated and contradicted what was actually going on in country. Number eight is an excellent point and possibly one of the ones that Macnamera focuses on when he discusses his regrets of the war. Number nine is be prepared to rethink your reasoning. Many of the generals were convinced that there was no way that America could lose the war. They also employed battle strategies that worked in previous wars such as World War 2 and the Korean War thinking that the strategies that won those wars would work in Vietnam two. They failed to take into account the terrain, enemy and climate differences. Towards then end Macnamera began reavaluating the battle stragies and eventually realized that the war was futile and that America had no business being there. Number nine is it is necessary to commit evil acts to do good. This is saying war is a necessay evil and that during war evils like murdering occur so that innocents are protected. This also justifies the dropping of agent orange. Even Macnamera admits that he knew it would cause a lot of damage but at the time it was worth the damage. Later he retracts that statement because of all the lasting effects that it caused.
This film seemed to be largely and explanation of Macnamera's thought process for his actions. Also, the second half of the movie seemed to be an apology for some of the actions in the Vietnam war.
I noticed that the first five points that were more applicable to soldiers and the next six seemed to be more applicable to commanders. The first point is to empathize with your enemy. This is something that all soldiers should do. This prevents horrific acts such as the My Lai masacar. War crimes would drop dramatically and war would be more humane if soldiers treated the enemy like human beings and not just animals that can be tortured, beaten and put down. The second point is another important point for a soldier to know. They cannot always rely on rationality to save them especially in times of war. As we have learned from the books we have read everything is permitted in war and what soldiers thought was right could be wrong and vise versa. Soldiers need to approach each situation differently and think outside of the box to survive. The third point is there is something beyond ones self. This is another great point for a soldier to know. Every action that they make has consiquenses that effect many more people then just them. Every enemy they kill affects the family of the dead soldier back home. Every airstrike they call in could kill hundreds of innocents. Soldiers need to consider the consiquences of their actions at all times during battle. The fourth point is maximizing efficiency. One thing that occured during Vietnam was extreme waste. Soldiers wasted everything from ammunition to time by cutting corners and treating the war like a vacation. Soldiers need to be cool and do their jobs and missions or they will surely fail as they did in Vietnam. War is not a joke and something to be taken lightly. The final point that seems to apply to soldiers that Macnamera made while he was a soldier is keep in mind proportionality. During war soldiers should not be excessive in the damage they cause. This will often cause civilians to turn against and hate them. Also, proportionality will reduce waste and increase efficiency.
The final six points seem to be formed after he became a commander and Secratary of Defense. Point six is to get the data. This is something that command needs to do efficiently. If they do not know the enemy and its positions, strength and how it is supplied and its strategy they cannot win. It seems that in Vietnam this rule was broken because the United States greatly underestimated the enemy. The next point is belief and seeing are both wrong. This point is another point inreference to the Vietnam war and seems to try and explain what went wrong. Despite the high body counts and the fact that the United States seemed to be pushing the North Vietnamese back they still managed to lose the war. The reports were grossly over estimated and contradicted what was actually going on in country. Number eight is an excellent point and possibly one of the ones that Macnamera focuses on when he discusses his regrets of the war. Number nine is be prepared to rethink your reasoning. Many of the generals were convinced that there was no way that America could lose the war. They also employed battle strategies that worked in previous wars such as World War 2 and the Korean War thinking that the strategies that won those wars would work in Vietnam two. They failed to take into account the terrain, enemy and climate differences. Towards then end Macnamera began reavaluating the battle stragies and eventually realized that the war was futile and that America had no business being there. Number nine is it is necessary to commit evil acts to do good. This is saying war is a necessay evil and that during war evils like murdering occur so that innocents are protected. This also justifies the dropping of agent orange. Even Macnamera admits that he knew it would cause a lot of damage but at the time it was worth the damage. Later he retracts that statement because of all the lasting effects that it caused.
This film seemed to be largely and explanation of Macnamera's thought process for his actions. Also, the second half of the movie seemed to be an apology for some of the actions in the Vietnam war.
Blog 12 AKB
The film Fog of War features former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. In this documentary, McNamara, at age 85, attempts to explain and justify his actions in war, namely the Vietnam War. He understands that no matter what he says, he will always be criticized, yet he makes this film in order to give a clearer depiction of what was going on in America at the time. Through the film, he also wishes to prove how the Vietnam War was wrong. He provides the audience with numerous examples of what went wrong in the war. For example, killing was not minimized, but rather consisted of many more deaths than were necessary. Also, McNamara describes how even America's own allies did not agree with their actions in Vietnam. He asserts that when this is true, then America should "reexamine" its initiatives. He also discusses how he left his office under President Lyndon B. Johnson, after having served under President John F. Kennedy. McNamara urged Johnson to pull out of Vietnam, but Johnson was adament about staying in the war.
There is a point in McNamara's lessons when the ideas shift, which is when he goes from giving lessons about life in general, to giving lessons about war. Lesson #4, which is to "Maximize efficiency," and Lesson #5 is "Proportionality should be a guideline in war." During these lessons, McNamara begins going into detail about the deaths inflicted by Americans on their enemies. In one instance, American soldiers killed 100,000 people in Tokyo in order to get ahead in the war. The idea was to maximize deaths in order to make weakening the enemy more efficient. He argues that there was little proportionality in these killings, and he asserts that America should have tried harder to minimize deaths. He also argues that whether or not the U.S. won the war, soldiers' actions would have been immoral either way.
At around Lesson #7, which is "Belief and seeing are both often wrong," McNamara goes into discussion about the Vietnam War, specifically. He says that the American government and the military leaders who were for the war saw what they wanted to believe. For example, President Johnson urged on fighting and involvement in Vietnam, drawing out the inevitable loss for America. He also asserts that "You can't change human nature," which is his 11th Lesson. What he means by this is that humans will always be prone to war and fighting, but he urges people to minimize war when faced with it. His belief that the war was an unjust one, and that America should have come out of it much earlier, was the main reason for why he resigned during the Johnson Administration.
There is a point in McNamara's lessons when the ideas shift, which is when he goes from giving lessons about life in general, to giving lessons about war. Lesson #4, which is to "Maximize efficiency," and Lesson #5 is "Proportionality should be a guideline in war." During these lessons, McNamara begins going into detail about the deaths inflicted by Americans on their enemies. In one instance, American soldiers killed 100,000 people in Tokyo in order to get ahead in the war. The idea was to maximize deaths in order to make weakening the enemy more efficient. He argues that there was little proportionality in these killings, and he asserts that America should have tried harder to minimize deaths. He also argues that whether or not the U.S. won the war, soldiers' actions would have been immoral either way.
At around Lesson #7, which is "Belief and seeing are both often wrong," McNamara goes into discussion about the Vietnam War, specifically. He says that the American government and the military leaders who were for the war saw what they wanted to believe. For example, President Johnson urged on fighting and involvement in Vietnam, drawing out the inevitable loss for America. He also asserts that "You can't change human nature," which is his 11th Lesson. What he means by this is that humans will always be prone to war and fighting, but he urges people to minimize war when faced with it. His belief that the war was an unjust one, and that America should have come out of it much earlier, was the main reason for why he resigned during the Johnson Administration.
Blog 12 CJ
The documentary, Fog of War, portrays the life of Robert McNamara while also giving insight into America’s politics. McNamara makes the film to explain and justify his actions as a politician. He uses eleven lessons as a framework for basing his arguments. Through McNamara’s responses and emotions, the viewer can understand he is troubled by many of the choices he made as the Secretary of State during the Vietnam War. He does not want to take full responsibility of many of his actions that killed thousands of people. McNamara uses lesson number nine, “in order to do good, you may have to engage in evil”, as a guideline to justify his actions. An example of using this lesson was the bombing of Tokyo, which he viewed as a necessary evil. Despite the high death toll and destruction of a city, McNamara still feels as though there was good that came out of the situation. He justifies this by saying their goal was not to kill the most people, but to do what would hurt the enemy the most. McNamara clearly feels guilty for many of the events that happened during the war and must deny much of the blame. McNamara does not admit to authorizing the use of Agent Orange and he rejects the accusation by saying that he does not remember if he authorized it or not. McNamara also expresses his disappointment in the American government for the confusion that was happening during the time. This is seen when he discusses the Gulf of Tonkin and how the military was confused with whether or not the ship was attacked. McNamara is a man who understands statistics and what could be done to maximize efficiency, an idea that was displayed throughout his career.
Through each different lesson, multiple topics were discussed. In the first few lessons of the documentary, McNamara seemed mostly concerned with the statistics of the matter, not necessarily the deeper meaning behind decisions that were made. Also, many of the first lessons discuss McNamara’s younger years, such as working with the ford motor company. Lesson number seven, “belief and seeing are both often wrong”, shows how often leaders can be completely wrong with what both they believe is right and what they have seen. This was the case of the United States ship that was allegedly attacked. This lesson marks a point where McNamara’s thought process beings to change. The idea of efficiency and statistics is replaced for analysis of the reasoning for killing and war. Leading off this analysis is lesson eight which states “be prepared to examine your reasoning”. In this section he discusses the use of Agent Orange and whether or not it is a war crime. McNamara says, “Now what kind of law do we have that says these chemicals are acceptable for use in war and these chemicals are not. We don't have clear definitions of that kind”. Just because it is not a crime does not mean that the harm was not done. This once again leads back to McNamara’s claim that to do good you may have to do evil. In order to connect all lessons and ideas, McNamara ends with, “You can’t change human nature”. He believes that war will never end and that it is part of nature for humans to fight and to kill. He does not condone killing, but believes that it is inevitable. Despite this fact, McNamara says, “And we kill people unnecessarily”. Despite the rationality and analysis of war, it is clear that people will always be killed for unjust reasons.
Through each different lesson, multiple topics were discussed. In the first few lessons of the documentary, McNamara seemed mostly concerned with the statistics of the matter, not necessarily the deeper meaning behind decisions that were made. Also, many of the first lessons discuss McNamara’s younger years, such as working with the ford motor company. Lesson number seven, “belief and seeing are both often wrong”, shows how often leaders can be completely wrong with what both they believe is right and what they have seen. This was the case of the United States ship that was allegedly attacked. This lesson marks a point where McNamara’s thought process beings to change. The idea of efficiency and statistics is replaced for analysis of the reasoning for killing and war. Leading off this analysis is lesson eight which states “be prepared to examine your reasoning”. In this section he discusses the use of Agent Orange and whether or not it is a war crime. McNamara says, “Now what kind of law do we have that says these chemicals are acceptable for use in war and these chemicals are not. We don't have clear definitions of that kind”. Just because it is not a crime does not mean that the harm was not done. This once again leads back to McNamara’s claim that to do good you may have to do evil. In order to connect all lessons and ideas, McNamara ends with, “You can’t change human nature”. He believes that war will never end and that it is part of nature for humans to fight and to kill. He does not condone killing, but believes that it is inevitable. Despite this fact, McNamara says, “And we kill people unnecessarily”. Despite the rationality and analysis of war, it is clear that people will always be killed for unjust reasons.
PAB BLOG 12
The Fog Of War is a documentary of what seems to be Robert S. MacNamera’s attempt to reconcile his past mistakes. The length of the film consisted of MacNamera’s explanations of actions and decisions made by him and the American government. The film is divided into eleven lessons. These lessons were derived from retrospective observation of the actions in the Vietnam War but most of them can theoretically be applied to any situation.
Lessons one to four, observed at a shallow depth, appear to be reasonable methods for succeeding in war. His first two lessons, about the reality of empathy and luck, are reasonable and disconnected from the evils of war. Lesson four approaches a stronger connectivity with the evil of war when MacNamera discusses the night when 100,000 Tokyo civilians were killed. This same event leads into lesson five, which reveals the true monstrosity of what happened in the Vietnam War. In order to kill those 100,000 people, fire bombing was necessary. This proportionality between the numbers of deaths on opposing sides of war represents a change in MacNamera’s change in subject tone.
His views seem to change at lesson seven as well. This lesson, “belief and seeing are both often wrong”, is explained by the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. From this lesson onward, the lessons pertain to human flaws and mistakes. The lessons include reexamining your reasoning, doing evil in order to do good, and to persist. The final lesson says “you can’t change human nature”. MacNamera lists flaws that manifest themselves during time of war. He is aware of these flaws because he was a major example of them all. He attempts to save himself by explaining that these are regular human flaws and you can’t change it. In the interview, MacNamera says “We all make mistakes. We know we make mistakes. I don't know any military commander, who is honest, who would say he has not made a mistake. There's a wonderful phrase: 'the fog of war.' What 'the fog of war' means is: war is so complex it's beyond the ability of the human mind to comprehend all the variables. Our judgment, our understanding, are not adequate. And we kill people unnecessarily.”
By the end of The Fog Of War it has become apparent that Robert Strange MacNamera tries to save face by blaming his actions on unfortunate human nature and not his personally flawed decision making.
Lessons one to four, observed at a shallow depth, appear to be reasonable methods for succeeding in war. His first two lessons, about the reality of empathy and luck, are reasonable and disconnected from the evils of war. Lesson four approaches a stronger connectivity with the evil of war when MacNamera discusses the night when 100,000 Tokyo civilians were killed. This same event leads into lesson five, which reveals the true monstrosity of what happened in the Vietnam War. In order to kill those 100,000 people, fire bombing was necessary. This proportionality between the numbers of deaths on opposing sides of war represents a change in MacNamera’s change in subject tone.
His views seem to change at lesson seven as well. This lesson, “belief and seeing are both often wrong”, is explained by the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. From this lesson onward, the lessons pertain to human flaws and mistakes. The lessons include reexamining your reasoning, doing evil in order to do good, and to persist. The final lesson says “you can’t change human nature”. MacNamera lists flaws that manifest themselves during time of war. He is aware of these flaws because he was a major example of them all. He attempts to save himself by explaining that these are regular human flaws and you can’t change it. In the interview, MacNamera says “We all make mistakes. We know we make mistakes. I don't know any military commander, who is honest, who would say he has not made a mistake. There's a wonderful phrase: 'the fog of war.' What 'the fog of war' means is: war is so complex it's beyond the ability of the human mind to comprehend all the variables. Our judgment, our understanding, are not adequate. And we kill people unnecessarily.”
By the end of The Fog Of War it has become apparent that Robert Strange MacNamera tries to save face by blaming his actions on unfortunate human nature and not his personally flawed decision making.
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